Comments for Pilegesh פילגש http://pilegesh.wordpress.com A mirror site of the http://Pilegesh.blogspot.com (BETA) Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:46:00 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on Sample Pilegesh Agreement by Sasha http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/sample-pilegesh-agreement/#comment-64 Sasha Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:46:00 +0000 http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/sample-pilegesh-agreement/#comment-64 Are there actually literate, self-respecting women in the world who agree to this? This is extremely advantageous to a man with commitment issues, with a lot more stringent requirements put on the woman. No man is worth this, ladies. <br/> This is a gross misinterpretation of G-d intended in the creation of Adam & Eve, manufactured by self-serving men who never wanted women to learn to read in the first place. Daughters of Eve aren't meant to be tossed aside when she starts to sag a little or a man gets bored. <br/> This type of arrangement doesn't dignify either party as it reduces you both to "contractual animals". Honor yourselves and honor G-d. You can do better. Are there actually literate, self-respecting women in the world who agree to this? This is extremely advantageous to a man with commitment issues, with a lot more stringent requirements put on the woman. No man is worth this, ladies.
This is a gross misinterpretation of G-d intended in the creation of Adam & Eve, manufactured by self-serving men who never wanted women to learn to read in the first place. Daughters of Eve aren’t meant to be tossed aside when she starts to sag a little or a man gets bored.
This type of arrangement doesn’t dignify either party as it reduces you both to “contractual animals”. Honor yourselves and honor G-d. You can do better.

]]> Comment on Father of 67 Seeks Ninth Wife by "Noah Smith" - Pilegesh.org http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/father-of-67-seeks-ninth-wife/#comment-63 "Noah Smith" - Pilegesh.org Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:27:00 +0000 http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/father-of-67-seeks-ninth-wife/#comment-63 B"H<br/>Muslims Against Sharia - you should rename yourself "Muslims Against Common Sense" , or "Muslims Against Human Rights"<br/>(I don't even understand why you insist on using the term Muslims when as is clear from your website and as has been pointed out by many other bloggers whose comments you have spammed you can be called Ex-Muslims , Muslim Apostates etc. but not Muslims since you deny the fundamentals of Islam and want to rewrite the Koran and half of your coauthors are not actually Muslims anyway)<br/>(I write this simply out of desire for truth in advertising)<br/><br/>Also as I pointed in comments on your blog.<br/>Why you want to deny women the right to marry a man who has shown the ability to love, satisfy and support women and claim that you are doing this in the name of human rights is mind-boggling. B”H
Muslims Against Sharia – you should rename yourself “Muslims Against Common Sense” , or “Muslims Against Human Rights”
(I don’t even understand why you insist on using the term Muslims when as is clear from your website and as has been pointed out by many other bloggers whose comments you have spammed you can be called Ex-Muslims , Muslim Apostates etc. but not Muslims since you deny the fundamentals of Islam and want to rewrite the Koran and half of your coauthors are not actually Muslims anyway)
(I write this simply out of desire for truth in advertising)

Also as I pointed in comments on your blog.
Why you want to deny women the right to marry a man who has shown the ability to love, satisfy and support women and claim that you are doing this in the name of human rights is mind-boggling.

]]> Comment on Father of 67 Seeks Ninth Wife by Avigayil http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/father-of-67-seeks-ninth-wife/#comment-62 Avigayil Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:08:00 +0000 http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/father-of-67-seeks-ninth-wife/#comment-62 Okay, so when are Jewish men going to be allowed the same privileges? Okay, so when are Jewish men going to be allowed the same privileges?

]]> Comment on The Confession by One in White http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/the-confession/#comment-61 One in White Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:53:00 +0000 http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/the-confession/#comment-61 I lived with an abusive husband for 10+ years. I now am Pilegesh to a man with an abusive wife whom he is afraid to leave for the kids' sake, since in Israel everything is so feminist and so biased against men...the ban against more than one wife being just another example of the disgusting feminist society.<br/><br/>As a divorced woman I have had no shortage of offers to be a Pilegesh to many men...I also get offers for one night stands. Frankly, I am sick of it. Unfortunately, I also get men coming to my house offering me money for services as well...why? Because one of my former idiotic female friends who doesn't understand what a Pilegesh is has gone around saying I sleep around indiscriminately. <br/><br/>The sooner multiple wives are again legal, the sooner women like me won't have to suffer as we do. And I also believe my first husband would have treated me better if he knew I could leave and get married to someone worthy. Now he just sees me as someone he has ruined for others to his glee, and he still verbally abuses me that he has wasted the best years of my life and now I am just leftovers.<br/><br/><br/>If I were to remarry I would choose only to marry a man who is already married!!! I want someone who can prove he's stable, period. <br/><br/>Not some other woman's discarded trash..I have my own discarded trash. I lived with an abusive husband for 10+ years. I now am Pilegesh to a man with an abusive wife whom he is afraid to leave for the kids’ sake, since in Israel everything is so feminist and so biased against men…the ban against more than one wife being just another example of the disgusting feminist society.

As a divorced woman I have had no shortage of offers to be a Pilegesh to many men…I also get offers for one night stands. Frankly, I am sick of it. Unfortunately, I also get men coming to my house offering me money for services as well…why? Because one of my former idiotic female friends who doesn’t understand what a Pilegesh is has gone around saying I sleep around indiscriminately.

The sooner multiple wives are again legal, the sooner women like me won’t have to suffer as we do. And I also believe my first husband would have treated me better if he knew I could leave and get married to someone worthy. Now he just sees me as someone he has ruined for others to his glee, and he still verbally abuses me that he has wasted the best years of my life and now I am just leftovers.

If I were to remarry I would choose only to marry a man who is already married!!! I want someone who can prove he’s stable, period.

Not some other woman’s discarded trash..I have my own discarded trash.

]]> Comment on Father of 67 Seeks Ninth Wife by Muslims Against Sharia http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/father-of-67-seeks-ninth-wife/#comment-60 Muslims Against Sharia Wed, 10 Oct 2007 19:30:00 +0000 http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/father-of-67-seeks-ninth-wife/#comment-60 Muslims Against Sharia condemn treatment of women by the State of Israel. <b>Government-sanctioned polygamy</b> is unbecoming of a country that claims to be the only true Democracy in the Middle East. We call on Israeli Knesset to immediately enact a law prohibiting married men to marry more women. No civilized society of the 21st century can permit this medieval practice. No civilized society treat its women as less than human beings.<br/><br/>Source: <a HREF="http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/104514.html" REL="nofollow">JTA</a><br/><a HREF="http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2007/10/state-sanctioned-polygamy-in-israel.html" REL="nofollow">Original statement</a> Muslims Against Sharia condemn treatment of women by the State of Israel. Government-sanctioned polygamy is unbecoming of a country that claims to be the only true Democracy in the Middle East. We call on Israeli Knesset to immediately enact a law prohibiting married men to marry more women. No civilized society of the 21st century can permit this medieval practice. No civilized society treat its women as less than human beings.

Source: JTA
Original statement

]]> Comment on The Confession by "Noah Smith" - Pilegesh.org http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/the-confession/#comment-59 "Noah Smith" - Pilegesh.org Sun, 07 Oct 2007 14:11:00 +0000 http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/the-confession/#comment-59 B"H<br/>Dear Tsvi!<br/>I think Chaya is saying that if there was implied agreement not to take a 2nd wife or a pilegesh it's not ethical thing to do for a husband to force this decision on the 1st wife even if one can find a halachik justification.<br/>This seems to be implied in her statement: "<i><br/>I'd like to say up front that I do not agree with married men having a pilegesh. <b>It's not necessarily about halacha but</b></i>" B”H
Dear Tsvi!
I think Chaya is saying that if there was implied agreement not to take a 2nd wife or a pilegesh it’s not ethical thing to do for a husband to force this decision on the 1st wife even if one can find a halachik justification.
This seems to be implied in her statement: “
I’d like to say up front that I do not agree with married men having a pilegesh. It’s not necessarily about halacha but“

]]> Comment on The Confession by scorpio http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/the-confession/#comment-58 scorpio Sun, 07 Oct 2007 04:22:00 +0000 http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/the-confession/#comment-58 I'm Chaya, <br/><br/>just a married guy who wants to try something new (or someone new....) is that really so bad? I wouldn't mind trying it with my wife, but she won't be into that at all.... I’m Chaya,

just a married guy who wants to try something new (or someone new….) is that really so bad? I wouldn’t mind trying it with my wife, but she won’t be into that at all….

]]> Comment on Rabbinic supervision. by Polygamy Helps Women http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2006/11/16/rabbinic-supervision/#comment-57 Polygamy Helps Women Fri, 05 Oct 2007 04:03:00 +0000 http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2006/11/16/rabbinic-supervision/#comment-57 Obviously Jeanette is a happily married woman who has never known the pain of living with an abusive husband for 14 years, or being divorced from one, not receiving child support or ketubah, unable to remarry because all of the eligible, GOOD, decent, God-fearing men she would ever consider are ALREADY married.<br/><br/>My blessing for you Jeanette: walk a mile in my shoes. Obviously Jeanette is a happily married woman who has never known the pain of living with an abusive husband for 14 years, or being divorced from one, not receiving child support or ketubah, unable to remarry because all of the eligible, GOOD, decent, God-fearing men she would ever consider are ALREADY married.

My blessing for you Jeanette: walk a mile in my shoes.

]]> Comment on The Confession by Tsvi http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/the-confession/#comment-56 Tsvi Thu, 04 Oct 2007 17:35:00 +0000 http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/the-confession/#comment-56 Dear Chaya:<br/><br/>I enjoyed reading your post, but I must disagree with you on two or three things.<br/><br/>You say that it is not a kosher relationship, so why follow the rules. Adaraba, it is indeed a kosher relationship.<br/><br/>You say that you disagree with the idea of a pilegesh for a married man.<br/><br/><br/>I think that just the opposite, a pilegesh is not a good idea for an unmarried man, and think that the institution of pilegesh is best suited for a married man who would take a second wife if circumstances allowed.<br/><br/>One of the major problems facing single women today is finding the right guy and getting him to commit to marriage. Many guys, if giving the opportunity of the lesser commitment of pilegesh, would take the easier way out and never get married. This would exacerbate a growing societal problem.<br/><br/>On the other hand, there are married men who in desperation get divorced, either because their wife can not have children, isn't interested or isn't available for sex (perhaps even due to medical issues or extremely long periods of tuma and short periods of tahara) or other reasons. they love their wives, but they can't stand it any more, or they must fulfill the mitzvah of having children.<br/><br/>In these cases, the ideal solution is a second wife. If one can't take a second wife either due to legal reasons (in a country where they jail polygamous men) or because he thinks tht Herem Rabbeinu Gershom is stillin effect, then a pilegesh is the next best solution.<br/><br/>The third point of disagreement is the implied contract that he will be exclusive to her.<br/><br/>We see in the Rishonim literature cases of men who got married in a place and time when Herem Rabbeinu Gershom was in force and went to a place where there waas no Herem Rabbeinu Gershom. In such cases the Maharil, the Rashba, and the Beis Yoseph all alllowed to take a second wife. In the first two cases at least, whatever expectations a callah would have in America today, they would have had then, and yet their husband was allowed to marry a second wife. How much more so to take a pilegesh. Rav Ya'akov Emdin specifically says that pilegesh does not violate Herem Rabbeinu Gershom.<br/><br/>I also have a question. Looking back, do you wish that you had opted to look for a husband to settle down with? Do you expect to do so in the future?<br/><br/>What kind of living and financial arrangements did you have? Did you live together, or just get togethter sometimes? Dear Chaya:

I enjoyed reading your post, but I must disagree with you on two or three things.

You say that it is not a kosher relationship, so why follow the rules. Adaraba, it is indeed a kosher relationship.

You say that you disagree with the idea of a pilegesh for a married man.

I think that just the opposite, a pilegesh is not a good idea for an unmarried man, and think that the institution of pilegesh is best suited for a married man who would take a second wife if circumstances allowed.

One of the major problems facing single women today is finding the right guy and getting him to commit to marriage. Many guys, if giving the opportunity of the lesser commitment of pilegesh, would take the easier way out and never get married. This would exacerbate a growing societal problem.

On the other hand, there are married men who in desperation get divorced, either because their wife can not have children, isn’t interested or isn’t available for sex (perhaps even due to medical issues or extremely long periods of tuma and short periods of tahara) or other reasons. they love their wives, but they can’t stand it any more, or they must fulfill the mitzvah of having children.

In these cases, the ideal solution is a second wife. If one can’t take a second wife either due to legal reasons (in a country where they jail polygamous men) or because he thinks tht Herem Rabbeinu Gershom is stillin effect, then a pilegesh is the next best solution.

The third point of disagreement is the implied contract that he will be exclusive to her.

We see in the Rishonim literature cases of men who got married in a place and time when Herem Rabbeinu Gershom was in force and went to a place where there waas no Herem Rabbeinu Gershom. In such cases the Maharil, the Rashba, and the Beis Yoseph all alllowed to take a second wife. In the first two cases at least, whatever expectations a callah would have in America today, they would have had then, and yet their husband was allowed to marry a second wife. How much more so to take a pilegesh. Rav Ya’akov Emdin specifically says that pilegesh does not violate Herem Rabbeinu Gershom.

I also have a question. Looking back, do you wish that you had opted to look for a husband to settle down with? Do you expect to do so in the future?

What kind of living and financial arrangements did you have? Did you live together, or just get togethter sometimes?

]]> Comment on The Confession by "Noah Smith" - Pilegesh.org http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/the-confession/#comment-55 "Noah Smith" - Pilegesh.org Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:24:00 +0000 http://pilegesh.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/the-confession/#comment-55 B"H<br/>Shalom Chaya!<br/>1st of all I'd like to welcome you as a newest team member of the Pilegesh Blog.<br/>2nd It's a great post.<br/>3rd You write:<br/><i>"I'd like to say up front that I do not agree with married men having a pilegesh. It's not necessarily about halacha but because when people get married nowadays, implicitly they have made a promise to be monogamous to that person. And that promise is binding until that marriage ends."<br/></i><br/>Keeping a promise if a promise was made is also part of halacha.<br/>Not everyone makes such a promise either explicitly or implicitly.<br/>(R. Moshe Feinstein rules that if it is made explicitly at the time of marriage it is binding. Which begs the question why wasn't it enough for him to presume that such promise is made implicitly in our time and place.)<br/>Also you presume that no wife would agree for her husband to have a pilegesh since you don't seem to address such posibility.<br/><br/>Suppose such promise was made at the time of marriage yet it turns out the wife can't have kids.<br/>See the question asked here: <a HREF="http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/print.asp?id=3348" REL="nofollow">http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/print.asp?id=3348</a><br/>if the rabbi would have gave the honest answer that pilegesh is permited this would have been a better solution for all involved.<br/>Suppose the husband has a very strong libido and has no outlet for it while the wife is a niddah.<br/>There are wives who would agree that he should have a pilegesh as long as he can afford and satisfy both of them.<br/>Suppose the husband has a factory in another place and spends part of the year there. A wife may agree that it would be better for him to have a pilegesh there than having a risk of him being overcome by his desire and hiring escorts risking to contract some STD and infect the wife when he comes back home.<br/>PS. Another possibility is that men implicitly agree not to tell their wives if they'll have a pilegesh not to actually not have one.<br/>(As one woman told me that in her opinion most women wouldn't want to be aware that the husband has a mistress. <br/>Which I think is one of the characteristics of the exile of Edom whose main trait is hipocrycy.)<br/>PPS. This blog and the personals has worldwide membership and worldwide audience thus one should keep in mind that what is obvious and implicit here is not obvious or implicit in many other places.<br/>PPPS.I know a Sefardi dayan of Yemenite extraction living in America who says that his right to take a 2nd wife in the future was one of the conditions he was assured of at the time of his marriage and he wants to do it. <br/>Which underscores my point that <i>nowdays</i> Jewish community has all kinds of people in it and their needs should be taken in the account as much as possible within halacha. B”H
Shalom Chaya!
1st of all I’d like to welcome you as a newest team member of the Pilegesh Blog.
2nd It’s a great post.
3rd You write:
“I’d like to say up front that I do not agree with married men having a pilegesh. It’s not necessarily about halacha but because when people get married nowadays, implicitly they have made a promise to be monogamous to that person. And that promise is binding until that marriage ends.”

Keeping a promise if a promise was made is also part of halacha.
Not everyone makes such a promise either explicitly or implicitly.
(R. Moshe Feinstein rules that if it is made explicitly at the time of marriage it is binding. Which begs the question why wasn’t it enough for him to presume that such promise is made implicitly in our time and place.)
Also you presume that no wife would agree for her husband to have a pilegesh since you don’t seem to address such posibility.

Suppose such promise was made at the time of marriage yet it turns out the wife can’t have kids.
See the question asked here: http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/print.asp?id=3348
if the rabbi would have gave the honest answer that pilegesh is permited this would have been a better solution for all involved.
Suppose the husband has a very strong libido and has no outlet for it while the wife is a niddah.
There are wives who would agree that he should have a pilegesh as long as he can afford and satisfy both of them.
Suppose the husband has a factory in another place and spends part of the year there. A wife may agree that it would be better for him to have a pilegesh there than having a risk of him being overcome by his desire and hiring escorts risking to contract some STD and infect the wife when he comes back home.
PS. Another possibility is that men implicitly agree not to tell their wives if they’ll have a pilegesh not to actually not have one.
(As one woman told me that in her opinion most women wouldn’t want to be aware that the husband has a mistress.
Which I think is one of the characteristics of the exile of Edom whose main trait is hipocrycy.)
PPS. This blog and the personals has worldwide membership and worldwide audience thus one should keep in mind that what is obvious and implicit here is not obvious or implicit in many other places.
PPPS.I know a Sefardi dayan of Yemenite extraction living in America who says that his right to take a 2nd wife in the future was one of the conditions he was assured of at the time of his marriage and he wants to do it.
Which underscores my point that nowdays Jewish community has all kinds of people in it and their needs should be taken in the account as much as possible within halacha.

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